Dear Dr Kannan,

Thank-you very much for probing the matter further. With some apologies for those members who may find these matters rather abstruse and perhaps even"mystical" I want to explore along with you on the meaning of katchies that I call in English "taransductive perception" , perceptions beyond the common sensorial. This kind of 'Socratic Diologue' (thanks to Bala here) is something I enjoy for the primary reason that I too learn for they promote restatements and revisions of views. Sometimes they even promote new ways of thinking . As usual I append my comments below yours.

Thank you for your interesting observation & interpretation. I would like to probe further on this matter. Before that I want to apologize if I have diverted the flow of the forum. It often happens in internet forums because of the tremendous freedom they offer. Of course, in a class room this won't happen:-)

Do you really believe that "meynjananm" could be subject to scientific scrutinies? In Science, questioning, being sceptical, not believing in any authority are considered as virtues. On the other hand,questioning is considered something impolite in religious enquiry. The Indian tradition asks us to believe in Vedams or Theyva maRais. This become a psychological authority and it is really hard to get out of this for a clear, unprejudicedobservation.

Loga:

A wrong influence of tradition , perhaps related to the undue elevation of Guru, is I think, responsible for this muffling of the questioning attitudes. I have experienced this personally when I moved about with the so -called swamijies as the sec.gen. of World Saiva Council. Now I am out of it mainly because I value freedom of enquiry even in Religion. A person must be a free thinker, bold and unrelenting in his inquisitiveness. In this Arunandi's Irupa Irupathu was an eye-opener. For though Arunandi understood Meykandar as Siva himself within a bodily frame,  he pursues astute questioning which is a  marvel of human intellect. I have tried to  translate this book many many times but only last year I managed  to do it to my satisfaction.

Every content of human experience can be studied scientifically but NOT in the positivistic sense that requires experimental verifications etc but rather in hermeneutic sense. In the hermeneutic sciences , as Dilthey has pointed out, there are NO replications and in this they are like HISTORICAL SCIENCES; there are only SOME RECORDS to UNDERSTAND what has transpired. The grants, monuments, agreements, contracts, proclamations, letters etc are the only materials historians have and all of them are TEXTS and the understanding is attained through INTERPRETING the TEXTS.  Such is the procedural structure of the hermeneutic sciences and because of which frequently they are mistaken with literary studies of various kinds. I have some simple articles on this and they are available in the Agamic Psychology Campus. Please refer to them for further details.

Kannan

Regarding the Katchies & Nadhi jothidam one could use some quantum physics for an explanation. It is rather a complex phenomenon. One could easily be cheated, if one is not really vigilant. These things are self deceiving too. That is why, the status of Transcendental appeals to me. I would say that there could possibly be no remembrance of a Transcendental status (I do not use "experience" purposely). Of course, that event could enrich one's own being and possibly of others. A person may try later to express the understanding of this event in a verbal or textual form. But that will never be the original "event". Of course, that leaves plenty of room for the interpreters and analysts!!

Loga:

I talk of Katchies interpreting and UNDERSTANDING them  but NOT Jothidam , even Nadi Jothidam. And as such any form of experience including the transcendental type IS NOT BEYOND HERMENEUTIC SCIENTIFIC inquiries. Let me explain this a bit further. In recent scientific studies of dreams, the psychologists distinguish between the normal dreams and what they call LUCID dreams. The lucid dreams are those in which the dreamer maintains his awareness without however any control over the dreams. In addition to that I would like introduce another type ; translucid dreams that I equate with the vinjnjaanak katchies of the Saivaites. Beyond this is the civanjaanak katchy, the absolutely transcendental.  The dreams onwards are varieties  of what I call transductive perceptions. And among these the translucid onwards are the substance of religious literature especially the Vishanava and Saiva Bakthi literature.  I am NOT sure whether quantum physics can be brought here for the translucid onwards are direct experiences of BEING, phenomenally at the translucid and noumenally at the transcendental. Such phenomenal and noumenal experiences of BEING are the genuinely METAPHYSICAL, in the original Greek sense of the word i.e. meta-physis, the beyond the physis, the physical.

Such metaphysical experiences are GENUINE  EXPERIENCES just as much as the ordinary and the UNDERSTANDING that is generated becomes TEXTS whether sung as metaphysical poetry or simply kept as a 'remembrance' as you would put it. However at this level hermeneutic inquiry does not cease for as TEXTS they require the reaching the Deep Structure from the Surface Structures of the textual remembrance of the experience. However at this point we DO NOT SEEK agreement with OTHERS but rather only with BEING who remains the author of these transcendental TEXTS. The interpretive or Socratic dialogue is WITH BEING and because of which such a dialogue is termed SUNYA SAMBASANAI by Thirumular. The LIMIT at this level, is the enjoyment of Sivanjaanam, absolute illumination and the language of which is DEEP SILENCE. Having overcome temporality, the impulse to VERBALIZE does not arise anymore and the communication continues only in the form cinmuththirai, a body language of a special kind.  The Deep Silence as a response to searching metaphysical questions is, I think, was recorded in world history in the proverbial smiling silence of Siddharta Gautama Buddha when he was queried with respect to reality of BEING.

Till we reach this terminal state, we can't escape from trying to interpret and understand especially the scriptural texts. Socratic dialogs help  to correct the misunderstandings to which we are always prone. Any one born with a human body  suffers from the mummalam for otherwise birth with a human frame will not be realized. It is in the course of earthly existence that we have to FREE ourselves from these inner defilers and enter the transcendental. The hermeneutic scientific  mode of analysing, learning and through that gaining in UNDERSTANDING must go on till we reach the level of Sunya Sambashanai. Any culture or religion that muffles free inquiry is AGAINST this birth right of every individual and with which we have to battle. The effective  fight against this oppression is to PRACTICE FREE INQUIRY no matter what the protests are.

Kannan

Your observation on Katchies are interesting. Once I wrote few articles on Andals Kanavu (dreams). That was an enriching experiencing, at least for few hours to be with Andal.
I will continue my queries later, as long as you do not judge people from their questions .
 

Loga:

Please continue your inquiry without fear or  favor. Similar to your Andal studies I am now studying PeriapuraNam but  along the lines of Agama Theriyam or Agamiyam,  a theoretical framework in terms of  KaRRali, Puththies and Siththies. What is your theory for interpreting and understanding Andal?